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Combat complaint [martial artist change]

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Postby MANIACWILL » May 25, 2004 (1:54 pm)

ok attacked two giants and this was the combat keep in mind i have 172 unarmed combat and was killing them much much easier yesterday

causing immediate bruises.
Swinging your arm in a circle, you successfully guide the giant into your other fist, causing a slight stunning affect.
[You feel completely healthy, are completely rested, in an excellent position, and are excellently balanced.]
[The giant looks to be in near perfect health.]
[Roundtime: 2 seconds]
>
A stone giant swings his boulder at you but you block the attack.
>attack
Ducking and spinning to the side, you draw your knee upward at the giant which causes it to double over in agony.
Swinging your arm in a circle, you successfully guide the giant into your other fist, causing a slight stunning affect.
[You feel completely healthy, are completely rested, in an excellent position, and are excellently balanced.]
[The giant looks to be mildly wounded.]
[Roundtime: 2 seconds]
>
A stone giant swings his boulder at you but is unable to penetrate your armor.
>
The stone giant begins to move towards you to engage you in combat.
>attack
Just as the giant is about to attack, you launch your own and cause it to yelp in pain and surprise.
Leaning back, you launch foot up and kick the giant, landing a hard hit.
[You feel completely healthy, are completely rested, in an excellent position, and are excellently balanced.]
[The giant looks to be mildly wounded.]
[Roundtime: 1 second]
>attack
You trick the giant into a cleverly-poised backhand.
Chopping directly at the giant, you poke your fingertips into its flesh slightly, causing immediate bruises.
[You feel completely healthy, are a little tired, in an excellent position, and are excellently balanced.]
[The giant looks to be moderately wounded.]
[Roundtime: 1 second]
>
A stone giant swings his boulder at you but is unable to penetrate your armor.
You are close to the stone giant, but not within melee range.
>attack
Chopping directly at the giant, you poke your fingertips into its flesh slightly, causing immediate bruises.
The giant leans back to avoid your kick, but you catch your heel on it anyway causing it to stumble a bit.
[You feel completely healthy, are a little tired, in an excellent position, and are excellently balanced.]
[The giant looks to be moderately wounded.]
[Roundtime: 2 seconds]
>attack
...wait 1 second.
>attack
You suddenly jerk your left knee up and surprise yourself that it actually connects, causing the giant to take a few steps back.
Chopping directly at the giant, you poke your fingertips into its flesh slightly, causing immediate bruises.
[You feel completely healthy, are a little tired, in an excellent position, and are excellently balanced.]
[The giant looks to be moderately wounded.]
[Roundtime: 1 second]
>attack
You suddenly jerk your left knee up and surprise yourself that it actually connects, causing the giant to take a few steps back.
The giant leans back to avoid your kick, but you catch your heel on it anyway causing it to stumble a bit.
[You feel completely healthy, are a little tired, in an excellent position, and are excellently balanced.]
[The giant looks to be severely wounded.]
[Roundtime: 1 second]
>
You close to melee range on the stone giant.
>attack
You launch an open-palmed chop at the giant, which glances off of it to cause minimal damage.
Your right hook lands a decent hit as you graze the giant slightly.
[You feel completely healthy, are somewhat tired, in an excellent position, and are excellently balanced.]
[The giant looks to be severely wounded.]
[Roundtime: 1 second]
>
A stone giant swings his boulder at you but you block the attack.
>attack
Chopping directly at the giant, you poke your fingertips into its flesh slightly, causing immediate bruises.
You suddenly jerk your left knee up and surprise yourself that it actually connects, causing the giant to take a few steps back.
[You feel completely healthy, are somewhat tired, in an excellent position, and are excellently balanced.]
[The giant looks to be severely wounded.]
[Roundtime: 2 seconds]
>
A stone giant swings his boulder at you but you block the attack.
>attack
You launch an open-palmed chop at the giant, which glances off of it to cause minimal damage.
The giant leans back to avoid your kick, but you catch your heel on it anyway causing it to stumble a bit.
[You feel completely healthy, are tired, in an excellent position, and are excellently balanced.]
[The giant looks to be severely wounded.]
[Roundtime: 1 second]
>attack
You launch an open-palmed chop at the giant, which glances off of it to cause minimal damage.
Chopping directly at the giant, you poke your fingertips into its flesh slightly, causing immediate bruises.
[You feel completely healthy, are tired, in an excellent position, and are excellently balanced.]
[The giant looks to be near death.]
[Roundtime: 2 seconds]
>
A stone giant swings his boulder at you but you dodge the attack.
>
A stone giant swings his boulder at you but you block the attack.
You gain a new rank in Outnumbered Defense.
[You gain 25 experience points.]
>attack
Your right hook lands a decent hit as you graze the giant slightly.
You suddenly jerk your left knee up and surprise yourself that it actually connects, causing the giant to take a few steps back.
[You feel completely healthy, are tired, in an excellent position, and are excellently balanced.]
[The giant looks to be near death.]
[Roundtime: 1 second]
>attack
You launch an open-palmed chop at the giant, which glances off of it to cause minimal damage.
The giant leans back to avoid your kick, but you catch your heel on it anyway causing it to stumble a bit.
[You feel completely healthy, are tired, in an excellent position, and are excellently balanced.]
[The giant looks to be near death.]
[Roundtime: 1 second]
>attack
Your right hook lands a decent hit as you graze the giant slightly.
You suddenly jerk your left knee up and surprise yourself that it actually connects, causing the giant to take a few steps back.
[You feel completely healthy, are fatigued, in an excellent position, and are excellently balanced.]
[The giant looks to be near death.]
[Roundtime: 2 seconds]
>
A stone giant swings his boulder at you but you block the attack.
>attack
Chopping directly at the giant, you poke your fingertips into its flesh slightly, causing immediate bruises.
A stone giant stares blankly at you in surprise as it crashes to the ground with a loud *thud*.
The stone giant slumps over dead at your feet.
You gain 104 experience.
[You are able to absorb 104 points into your training experience pool.]
[You feel completely healthy, are fatigued, in an excellent position, and are excellently balanced.]
[Roundtime: 1 second]



I take it you made unarmed so weak it is almost not worth being a martial artist or is this some kind of a bug would be nice to know


I am attacking as if i has 0 ranks in unarmed combat. I appears to be a bug personally as at my rank in the skill i was doing much much better before today
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Postby GDEXXY » May 25, 2004 (2:42 pm)

Martial Artist / Monk unarmed combat damage previously scaled way too high. At nearly triple the best weapons in the game are capable of with practically no weight (1-2 seconds roundtime average), most Martial Artists can easily kill a creature at their level (and often higher) in 1-3 hits. This is both unreasonable and unbalanced.

Martial Artist / Monk unarmed damage rating (base) is based purely on level, with bonuses adding in from agility, wisdom, how well you actually hit the creature, etc. Offensive combat skills add to attack rating, which is factored into damage if you hit exceptionally well. Skill factor has not been changed (at all). Exactly how much base unarmed damage a Martial Artist can deal was the only adjustments made -- to even them out on par with weapons found throughout the game, even though Martial Artists still can deal more base damage than any weapon.

In your example, you attack a stone giant 15 times in 21 seconds (actually 20, since you didn't have to wait for the last attack's roundtime). You received negligible damage (or none... I'm not reading every line, but based on the ending combat summary, you look fine). You were moderately fatigued -- DODGE or PARRY once in a while. Not only does doing so give your character a 3-4 second chance to rest, which helps regenerate fatigue (rather than expend fatigue by attacking), but it actually does so at double the rate. I would suggest once per every 6-8 attacks should be fine, but you'll need to find out what works for you.

Had you dodged, parried, etc. you would have wound up killing a creature at your level in about 30 seconds with no injuries or fatigue. I hardly see the adjustments I made as unreasonable. If that kind of combat progress (1 challenging creature = 30 seconds) makes you feel that your character's class is no longer worth playing, then I'm afraid that's your problem. I don't share the same opinion.

Certainly you and many martial artists (and monks, but to a far lesser degree since the based damage scale was comparitively equal to begin with) won't enjoy a change that removes your single-hit kills, but it was a problem that we felt needed to be fixed to be fair to everyone. I'm sure many would agree.
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Postby ASTRID » May 25, 2004 (4:54 pm)

I'm having lots of trouble, too. Just killed a striped jungatha in 23 hits, taking time along the way to drink some potion, cast a healing spell and chase after the critter that ran off while I was busy keeping myself alive. Got 35 points for my troubles. Luckily he didn't run into a room where one of his mottled buddies was waiting, or I wouldn't have gotten that. Of course I might be having different luck next week when the Druid goodies get released (happy happy joy joy!) so I'm not complaining. But currently I'm not really able to hunt a single critter at my level, unless the other critters are willing to honor the spirit of fair play by leaving us alone for a couple of minutes and I have a nice supply of potion at hand. Tried it out in stone giants too. Took me 30 hits to kill two of them for 0 points. ouch. I was never the best fighter anyway, so others might be having a much easier time of it, but I'm definitely going to have to find a whole new way of fighting (and I think I might get one soon!) if I'm going to keep myself in one piece.

can't kill a cat worth a darn and blissful anyway,
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Postby MANIACWILL » May 25, 2004 (5:10 pm)

generally if i go all out combat it takes me 20 to 30 seconds to kill one critter and up to a minute if i try to keep my fatigue down. I can understand it if we had anything going for us but we are straight combat and now even that sucks. This is like a thief losing 90% of his hiding pick pocket and moving silently skilsl or a barbarian getting a 30 second rt for combat using any weapon. Anyone that plays a martial artist monk druid ect that excells at unarmed having an easy time or even decent time of it I personally would like to hear from you how you plan on handeling any normal swarms. 8-15 is pretty normal swarms in stone giants and i hear the jungtha's and draconians do the same. How are you doing and if well how. Any advice for new players that plan to go this path would be good to know also. thanks
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Postby ASTRID » May 25, 2004 (5:30 pm)

Highest number of jungathas I've ever seen in a room was 5, and that's rare. Usually you're looking at 1 to 3. Not sure about the russet and greys...might be higher numbers in there, but not in the others. The couple of times I've been to Drac warriors we didn't have to fight more than 3 at once. Combat has slowed since then, so the critters might have a bit more time to gang up, but I doubt you'll be having the swarming issues you're worrying about once you leave the pit.
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Postby BC24 » May 25, 2004 (5:36 pm)

I agree that maybe our unarmed combat skills were very very strong (I was hunting with a guy a level or two above me and I was putting him to shame)... but with these new changes, I find myself stuggling with monsters. Even ones that are below my level, it's taking me a long time to kill them. Maybe a compromise somewhere in between. Making unarmed a bit weaker then it was but a bit stronger then it is now. Fighting is all we have. We're -supposed- to be a lot stronger then other guilds when it comes to physical combat (maybe on par with barbs, I dunno).
Don't know everything, just going by what I see when I fight.
Thanks
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Postby MANIACWILL » May 25, 2004 (8:09 pm)

I agree completly with BC24 about combat I would have been alot happier with half the reduction but as is i plan on giving away my stuff soon and giving money to friends I will probably talk to those that are friends and combining gear and money so i can see what to give to whom and what i want to auction off. If it improves i will stay but as is i dont see that happening
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Postby Goharo » May 25, 2004 (8:29 pm)

Welcome to my world. If you play around a little you will see what you can and cant kill. And from what I can gather yous need some more defnese skills. Seems how things arent dropping as fast they get to hit more.
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Postby GDEXXY » May 25, 2004 (10:23 pm)

I have added back some of the damage, hoping that it's not too unbalanced again. Please re-evaluate and let me know how it goes, everyone.

Will,
I do not respond to threats of quitting or rerolling, as you have done a number of times now. Threatening to do so generally demonstrates only that you want changes or benefits for you, no matter what the cost to the game and community. I added back more damage based on the opinions and feedback of multiple players and not on the threat that you may leave if you don't get your way. In the future, please give us constructive criticism and share your opinions with the rest of the community.

Thank you everyone for providing excellent feedback and communication. Again, please let me know how these new tweaks go.
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Postby ASTRID » May 25, 2004 (11:43 pm)

Well, I went out hunting. Borrowed an enhanced item from someone to give me a strength boost to see if that would help. I was killing stuff much better, and I thought "boy! this really works great!" Then I read the last post. *chuckle* Sooooooo....with the new tweaks and a nice strength boost I'm killing stuff not quite as impressively as I used to, but certainly well enough to make any halfling happy.

Thanks a bunch!
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Postby BRUCE » May 26, 2004 (12:49 am)

I never had a problem with damage even after the initial downtweak. I think we were fairly overpowered before the downtweak, not comparing us to other guilds because i don't have any experience with them. It just seemed like combat was too easy. I had 0 deaths from critters until Jungatha cuz everything is dead before it attacks. I do wear 2 martial artists' items which enhance my damage so maybe thats why my damage is stil decent after the tweak, ill try without them on a little later. If thats it grab yourself a few items, it'l improve ya by leaps and bounds, i have one spare piece if someone needs one.

Fatigue seems to really get me now, i swing 4-5 times and im tired, maybe 8 swings and im exhausted dabbing my brow. Is 22 stamina maybe not enough? I would think fists drain almost no fatigue.

I realize your frustrated Will but ya gotta have some faith in Exxy, lets work with him to get martial artists where they ought to be in Eaxia. He's done a great job so far and im sure he'l get us balanced out right. Plus ya can't quit i've only so many friends here. I realize it's hard after a downtweak but just stay calm and give Exxy as many hard facts as ya can to help him fix any existing problems.

Holler if ya need a martial artist's full helm.
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Postby MANIACWILL » May 26, 2004 (11:57 am)

bruse how much do you want for that extra piece of martial artist gear i am trying to gather four pieces and have been for some time but since there are so many martial artist now alot of them want it too. Either aim me at maniacwill2 or find me in game sometime to discuss it oh and if it is double enchanted i got an extra necromancer talisman of enhancement that adds life defence and ar
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Postby BC24 » May 26, 2004 (12:36 pm)

Thanks for the changes, Exxy. Fighting is much better now.

And Bruse... I don't think I'll be comparing myself to you. You're a beast!! ::laugh::
I've got a MA helm... didn't know there was more. If you have spare anything, I'm sure I can take it off your hands :P

Later
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