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Stealing items and gold when you kill someone

Postby MANIACWILL » May 21, 2004 (10:46 pm)

Just a thought not sure this is allowed but when you kill someone and they drop items and gold are you able to steal them and run. I ask this because i was in combat with smark because he stole from me and i drop just over 700 pounds of gold i think somewhere in the neighborhood of 20k or so and he takes my gold and runs. As far as I see it this is called graverobbing and is covered in the policy as a major violation I assisted immediatly so it can be looked into and as of yet he has been bragging about it so maybe he has done this to others and gotten away with it. Since this is the forum to discuss things I figure i will start a line so people can post thier thoughts. If you can take gold when it gets dropped it follows that items that you was carrying can also be taken so if this is legal i might want to follow people around during combat and take item they drop and you can kill someone for stealing or during a legal combat and take thier items and money. What are your thoughts on this
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Postby SMARK » May 21, 2004 (11:08 pm)

Well I did leave your double enchanted shield there, and I also sent a thought out that you needed help. For the record I don't think it is graverobbing. There should be a price to pay for actions taken. I assume if/when somone actually kills me for stealing, that they will want their gold back and whatever gold I had in my pockets. You rolled the dice and lost. Suck it up.

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Postby MANIACWILL » May 21, 2004 (11:11 pm)

taking gold is the same as taking items if the game staff doesnt see your actions as against policy and i ever see you die your items that drop are mine it is the same to take items and gold as they both fall and i believe that killing a person that attacks you for stealing from them and then running off with thier items or gold is grave robbing. i am hoping that the community and staff feel the same
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Postby MANIACWILL » May 21, 2004 (11:12 pm)

i just hope that after exxy spoke with you about stalking specific targets that you can be found guilty of that. Grave robbing is a serious enough offence by itself
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Postby SMARK » May 21, 2004 (11:21 pm)

NO need to drag Exxy into this. I won't speak of the conversation I had with him. But i will tell you this, anyone that hunts or has gold is a target for me. I went to Giants to practice stealing, because it is hard to do it out of hunting areas. If ya were so wrorried about theft you could have gone to a no-steal room to open your boxes. You Will had the choice to attck me or not. You chose poorly. I have never taken gold or items from people I asist that have fallen, that is low. I took gold from someone who was activley attacking me. If you do decide to start stealingg things from fallen adventurers that gives anyone who witnesses that consent. And seeing as how you drop like a stone I wouldn't suggest goin down that path.

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Postby ASTRID » May 21, 2004 (11:24 pm)

The policy regarding grave robbing seems a little vaugue to me, as it's written. I can't tell if it's consent or if it's forbidden, or if gold is included in treasure. To avoid future confusion, perhaps that paragraph should be given an update.

Here's a poser...say a thief named Tony has 100 gold of his own hard earned money in his pocket. Tony steals 50 gold from Billy. Billy catches Tony, and a fight ensues, ending in Tony's death. Of course Billy will want his money back, and we'd expect him to pick it up after Tony dies. But not all of that gold on the ground belonged to Billy. If he picks up the gold (150) and fails to give 100 back to Tony, is Billy guilty of graverobbing?
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Postby MANIACWILL » May 21, 2004 (11:26 pm)

like i said it is a matter of assist and i will see how it plays out with the staff. If it is legal then your items will be targeted tilll i feel repaid if you kill me later for it without consent from me it is an offence oh wait you have six hours from the time of the THEFT to steal from me if i am on a different character though you cant target me the next day or after those six hours however i feel it is against policy and therefore wouldnt do such a thing and i will find out soon whether it is against policy or not
it is as simple as that and i have spoken to many many people about it that thought you was a good guy until this you showed your true colors today and many wont forget it. I know i can hold a grudge for years
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Postby MANIACWILL » May 21, 2004 (11:30 pm)

As is it is considered over once the thief or the attacker is dead however if another person witnessed the attack they still have the option to engage in combat for six hours now if they wanted thier money back they could always request it back before attacking and it could be roleplayed however since the incident is considered over once one of the two is engaged in combat it should therefore be considered grave robbing if the thief steals the items or money which are both dropped after the attacker was killed or if the attacker kills the thief and then runs off with thier items. Grave robbing is normally considered deleberatly taking a persons items and normally happens only to thier grave but I serously doubt that people was aware that a person would be dumb enough to steal items that were dropped after combat. Combat is frowned upon except when both agree to it or when there is a theft of another players items. Therefore It is either perfectly legal to take another players gold and items that fall when they are killed by anything be it a player or creature or it is grave robbing and should result in a months banning for the person responsable
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Postby MANIACWILL » May 21, 2004 (11:36 pm)

I have known someone to hold a persons items for them and forget to give it back so normally it is just a matter of an accident but when you purposfully take thier stuff and run That is the definition of a grave robbing and normally when you forget to give stuff back you just ask them for thier stuff Stealing from the dead is the entire point behind graverobbing not helping them and them needing to ask for thier belongings
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Postby ASTRID » May 21, 2004 (11:37 pm)

"Therefore It is either perfectly legal to take another players gold and items that fall when they are killed by anything be it a player or creature or it is grave robbing and should result in a months banning for the person responsable"

I don't see how you can make that broad statement. There are many rules that include extenuating circumstances. Taking the gold dropped by someone who just attempted to kill you is vastly different than taking gold that was dropped by someone with whom you have no disagreement. One would be expected to act differently towards ones attacker than towards someone he happened across in a hunting area.
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Postby SMARK » May 21, 2004 (11:42 pm)

If i wanted to be liked by everyone then i woulda been a paldin. It's nothin personal Will, don't make it so. There are thieves in the game and they steal. You bit off more than you could chew and now your upset. Bad things should happen if ya mess with a GrandMaster Thief. It would be completely out of character for you to keep your gold. Because that's what I was aftter anyway. If some characters shun Smark for this that's appropriate. I wouldn't expect everbody to think that it's all hunky dory. But how dull would Eaxia be if everyone liked one another and bad stuff never happened? Eaxia is a world where we all fight and kill for trasure and glory, it's not romper room.

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Postby MANIACWILL » May 21, 2004 (11:44 pm)

I beg to differ and I would expect smark's wife to take this stance as he is the person in question therefore it is not for us to decide but should be discussed with others not involved who should be able to say if thier items they drop when they die by any means should be up for grabs. The reason behind why the theft happened is irrelevant as the rules for engagement in theft are very clear and the incident ends when one player falls so who engaged who no longer has any reason to be in this thread it simply becomes what should be done to a person that steals from a dead person knowingly and if nothing then everyone should know that it is thus perfectly legal to do so so that if you have a weapon or shield that someone else wants or they are carrying some money and you want it then you should be allowed to take it. it is simply black or white either

A. you can take whatever falls from a dead person or

B. you cant.

if a then you are thus allowed to graverob when it is possible if b then you are not. Smark admitted to doing so in this post so either he is guilty or everyone needs to know that you can take whatever is dropped when someone dies. I love a black and white arguement
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Postby ASTRID » May 21, 2004 (11:51 pm)

Clearly you love a black and white argument, but those are few and far between, and this isn't one of them.

you said....

"I beg to differ and I would expect smark's wife to take this stance as he is the person in question therefore it is not for us to decide but should be discussed with others not involved who should be able to say if thier items they drop when they die by any means should be up for grabs."

in respose to that 1) You're dead wrong. I'm curious to see how this shakes out, and I'm not sitting here saying it ought to be one way or the other. If you read for content, you'd see that. and 2) If you can discuss it, being a prime character in the whole deal, then my being married to Smark certainly shouldn't exclude me from the discussion.
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Postby GDPALLIDAR » May 21, 2004 (11:53 pm)

I have a lovely thought. Why don't we wait for Exxy to give his thoughts on the matter, since it's all been opened wide at this point. No point in bickering, the points were made and read, now it's a matter of an official response, I believe.
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Postby MANIACWILL » May 21, 2004 (11:59 pm)

Astrid I love your point so here is the two questions as they stand and my side is you can not take any items from anyone that is dead for any reason and it should be reason for a month of banned time.

Smark is on the side that says you should be able to his reasoning is that it was a combat the game rules says that any dispute is ended upon the death of a combatant should a pvp scenerio resolve so his statement is resolved to being that you can take items from the dead and eaxia should stay out of it.

now since nothing short of both people agreeing to the combat or a theft gives anyone permission to engage in combat and theft doesnt give the thief permission till they are actually attacked either ranged melee or by spell and the conflict ends upon someone engaged in it dieing the combat thing is false and against the policy of eaxia. Since you say you are a third party and only voicing your opinions that it is right to take from the dead I appoligize publically for saying you take smarks side and you have made your point that you believe it is legal to steal from the dead under certian circumstances. Combat is not a legal excuss acording to the policy you signed the same as i did so i want to know what legal reasons you feel it is necessary. I am greatly interested in your opinion that doesnt get canceled out by the currently policy and maybe we need to start a poll to change the policy if enough people feel that stealing from the dead is legal at all

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Posted: May 22, 2004 (12:53 am) Subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a lovely thought. Why don't we wait for Exxy to give his thoughts on the matter, since it's all been opened wide at this point. No point in bickering, the points were made and read, now it's a matter of an official response, I believe.


sorry started writing before you posted
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Postby ASTRID » May 22, 2004 (12:26 am)

"now since nothing short of both people agreeing to the combat or a theft gives anyone permission to engage in combat..."

Will, ya know better than that. Lots of things give consent.

"and the conflict ends upon someone engaged in it dieing the combat thing is false and against the policy of eaxia."

You make a good point when you say that the conflict must end upon the death of the loser, but I'm still not convinced that graverobbing is forbidden. In the rules it is covered in section 11.9, PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER. in 11.9.9 OTHER, it states "Other activites that can be targeted against another character (either directly or indirectly), such as stealing treasures another character has been awarded by killing a creature, removing items from a dead character's grave (graverobbing, which is generally not possible in Eaxia Online at the time of this writing), etc. that are not covered by the other chapters of this section of the player policy. " It doesn't say that graverobbing is against policy, and neither does it say that it awards consent. Most of the items in section 11.9 are specifically named as either a violation or as consent, but this one is left rather vauge. I'll have to hear it from a GM before I'm convinced one way or another on that particular point.

"Since you say you are a third party and only voicing your opinions that it is right to take from the dead I appoligize publically for saying you take smarks side and you have made your point that you believe it is legal to steal from the dead under certian circumstances."

Don't put words in my mouth. I have said nothing of the kind and I would appreciate it if you'll avoid grossly misquoting me in the future. If you're not able to understand what I say, ask me to clarify and I will. But please don't jump to conclusions and then post your misguided rephrasing as a representation of my opinions.

"Combat is not a legal excuss acording to the policy you signed the same as i did so i want to know what legal reasons you feel it is necessary."

I never said it was necessary. There is a world of difference between believing something is necessary, and being unconvinced that it is forbidden.
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Postby SORROWOFLEGENDS » May 22, 2004 (2:34 am)

Personally, I say it's a part of the game/life and there shouldn't be any higher power involvement. If it were that big of a deal that it should be handled out of game, there should be a drop timer on dead peoples things, and either way, a Thief is a Thief, they lie, steal, loot and plunder, it's just what they do. I heartily disagree with getting any higher power involved, as I know it's not the 20k, but the principle of the thing, because 20k can easily be gotten in about 10 minutes. Good luck to the whole of you though.
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Postby GDSELNYA » May 22, 2004 (9:57 am)

I thought I'd throw my two cents in more for the consideration of Exxy in making his decision than anything else. If a person is stolen from by a thief, they have two choices. Attempt to kill the thief as is allowed by the rules or walk away and not risk dying themselves.

If you think about what might happen if a person in real life is pickpocketed, and they choose to attack the person that did it, they would either win, get their moeny back and have the person arrested, or lose, be it dying or knocked unconscious and the thief would probably take all their belongings and run.

If this were to be an exception, it would not mean you could run around and wait for a person to die in combat with creatures and steal their belongings. That is a different circumstance all together. That is when people help each other as a team. In the case of a player vs player when stealing is what made the consent, the winner could take the losers belongings or possibly limit it to the other players gold. It would be the consequence of either party involved.... the thief for stealing or the one who decided to attack the thief.

I feel making a blanket statement saying any dead person's belongings laying on the ground is fair game is asking for total chaos in a game that is fun.
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Postby saphyre » May 22, 2004 (10:33 am)

I got mixed feeling about grave robbing. There are several people in game that bought actual items with real money. Saphyre for example got a staff through fundraising. Cost me 40 us. I doubt grave robbing will ever be allowed. If that staff would be stolen, it would actually be real stealing. I would not come back to a game where stuff i buy with real money could be taken away because a jerk could kill me just to get the items.......... however... if real money would not have been involve in this world, i would have sided for being able to grave robbed with proper rules to prevent abuse or harassement.
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Postby MANIACWILL » May 22, 2004 (12:54 pm)

1 sorrowoflegends, no1hugger. The point being if you allow theft of gold or items apon death then any items and gold are up for grabs regardless of what the reason for that is. Often people engage in friendly pvp so what you are saying is that if you do or are back stabbed or killed for engaging in the system set down for dealing with thiefs your items or those of someone that comes to your defence should be up for grabs. Say you are hunting and you die and you have a weapon and shield that costed you all the money you made in a month playing. al the hard work you put in to finding those items or a friend put into getting them are wasted. if you say 20k is a small amount take a person with 20 million gold that considers a couple million little. take into consideration a new player struggling for thier first 1000 gold. The amount or items in theft of a dead person are meaningless. whether you paid 40 bucks in real money or got them free is meaningless like i said if you can take money and items a person drops without the intention of returning it guild doesnt even matter. this last statement is obvious how many non thiefs have the stealing skill. alot so that is simple if you allow it once you allow it always and the reason behind it really dont matter. If you feel different the next time you die and that awsome item you dropped gets stolen dont complain as you feel this is fair and exceptions to rules would be someone saying if i die take my money take my items.

Look at it this way you spend gold on your items so your items are the same as gold and vice versa. you are level 30 and a level 70 thief robs you. you now have either no recourse or you attack. with no recourse the thief clause is pointless and if you atack and you drop that necromancers weapon of revival and paladins shield of god or whatever just remember all items have value and that value is equivilant to gold so they just stole your gold. kinda makes you think doesnt it
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Postby GDPALLIDAR » May 22, 2004 (1:29 pm)

I feel compelled to point out that realism is a poor argument unless one is willing to accept the full spectrum. For example, it is just as realistic for someone to lose all their items because their body was looted post-death from a critter as it is from a thief confrontation.

Likewise if we want to use realism as the yardstick for things, it's just as realistic for critters to take your gold / items and for those things to possibly be irrecoverable (after all, the critter could leave the area, right?)

When one delves into the issue of realism, it is scarcely a solid foundation for any argument because so few people would like to accept the implications of a fully real gaming environment.
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Postby SORROWOFLEGENDS » May 23, 2004 (4:45 am)

From a whiny perspective: You pay real money to play this game (unless of course you have a free account then who cares about you heh) so either way if you're a paying subscriber, you use your time and effort to attain said items and gold, therefore using your real life currency to maintain the playable game, in turn causing you to lose RL money, savvy? I don't really care though, because to contradict the whiny side, you pay to play ;)
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Postby GDEXXY » May 23, 2004 (10:39 am)

This thread could have done with maybe 3-4 posts, one from each person. I'm not sure why we needed to hear the same opinions from the same people multiple times back-to-back, but regardless, I understand the point each person is trying to make.

Here is your definitive answer:

Graverobbing is not technically possible in Eaxia. Why? Because the items in your grave are protected from any other player touching them. Items and gold you drop as a result of death (from a trap, from a creature or player killing you, etc.) are always at risk for theft or deletion ("the janitor") -- that's one of the risks you take while holding items instead of wearing them or keeping them put away away and/or depositing your coins more frequently.

So that begs to ask... are items lost this way fair game to other players? Is it okay to steal these items if I saw JimBob dead and wanted his super-cool Sword of Death?

Honestly, the policy is vague on this point. It doesn't really say one way or the other. The best it does is say that under many circumstances this kind of theft can be considered harassment and to contact the game staff (us) to resolve the conflict. There are too many factors and possibilities for this situation to come up for us to delve into in a policy, which is already horrendously huge. So, we will decide on a case-by-case basis when theft of items and gold that a person lost as a result of death is okay.

In my opinion, generally it's never okay. The only time I would probably allow it is if, for no reason, someone attacked you and you killed them.

In the case of Will vs. Smark, Smark provoked Will by stealing from him, who took action and suffered loss of life. He dropped items and gold. I judged that in this situation, it's not okay for the thief/aggressor (Smark) to take these items because it then suggests that it's okay for thieves and other higher-level characters could provoke other players into attacking (by stealing) and then loot whatever they drop immediately after.

While that wasn't the intentions Smark had and certainly there's a lot of room for interpretation between Will's perspective and Smark's, what's done is done and both parties have been talked to and the situation is now resolved. Will, Smark, anyone -- if any of you feel unresolved about this situation, talk to me privately. If you're just looking for an answer of what's okay and what's not, you have your answer best I can give it.
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Postby COTY » Jun 16, 2004 (6:37 am)

What's the big fuss the gold taken? as i recall prior to my long and almost eternal slumber THIS occured several times in various places to different people. Grave robbing would be stealing your weapons or armor or initiating the combat of another and then taking their gear. If you confronted someone for stealing nad in the process died and lost and thus resulted in losing your gold the Gm's / staff arn't going to do anything about it. Unless times have changed and their views on this matter.

The last i recall as long as the matter was handled in a RP eperience then there's no complaining about you losing your gold. Now lets say the lad had stalked you and then blatently killed you over a seamingly petty matter and walked off with your coins, yes by all means assist and have it looked into. Otherwise bite ya tounge, suck it up, go bash some critters so next time you can defend yourself properly.
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Postby MANIACWILL » Jun 16, 2004 (12:49 pm)

11.9.2 THEFT
Characters may steal money from each other using the STEAL command. Any money the target or victim is actually carrying on their character is at risk for this kind of theft. Should a character become aware that he or she is being stolen from, the target is immediately granted CONSENT (11.9.7) to engage in combat activities against the thief. Any witnesses to the theft are also granted CONSENT towards the thief (the theft must be noticed by the witness). This form of CONSENT is valid for the 6 hours from which the theft occurred.

since you went to sleep this rule was put into place. This replaced the rule that if you caught a thief you told them to bugger off and they had to for 24 hours. therefore it becomes necessary to protect the persons stuff from when the thief provokes combat. As is by your method I could take will and steal from a player half her level just to provoke an attack so i could steal that pretty weapon they got. It was needed to prevent this and help insure that the combat system wasnt misused by higher level thiefs. However if you attack a player and they defend themselves and while defending themselves they kill the attacker thier items are now your personal property. This changes if both agree beforehand to the combat. I think it helps discourage pvp against someone because you dont like what they say or do. If you are attacked without provication it is also against policy so feel free to assist on it. just my 2 cents
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